Curse

Bryant Again · Jun 13, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

And another thing, try to think what kind of game you would like to play. So you made a mistake worth $150+ by buying a game that didn't meet your expectations and were made by amateurs. SH*T HAPPENS DUDE and it could be a lot worse. Servers shutting down because of lack of income. I think it's about time to move on.

The OP is not talking about "revolutionary/skilled people leaving because the game turned out to be bad", it's that the game was turned into "something bad". It's not about a game not exceeding your expectations, it's about a game meeting them then later trashing them due to changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But, it IS valid that a lot more people wanted the easy game we have now than the hard nobody but the elite could get to before game.

That's just as if not more invalid than my previous statement.

And "hard but elite"? Unless I recall, only about 5 areas of the game were considered "elite", and that was on Hard Mode.

Red Sonya · Jun 13, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

The reason with Airtsu's statement is true and yours is unsubstantiated is based on the last statement you made above. Surmising that the majority of the playerbase enjoys the overpowered skills is just as faulty as those who state that a majority of the playerbase does not like the overpowered skills.

Since we unfortunately do not have access to that type of information (and I find it highly unlikely that A-Net does as well), all we can do is put forth our own opinions and let A-Net's developers (if they are getting the feedback via Regina) evaluate whether their design decisions are "good for the game" or not.

Dismissing forum opinions simply because "well, we ain't be knowin' whether everyone feels that way" is flawed logic, since none of us know whether those opinions are widely held or not.

Well then you best go back to school and learn computer science then because Anet can pull so much data information out of their system it would make your eyes swim. They can create spreadsheets of unlimited data as to population, peak population times, area population, and the list goes on an on bud. Like I said THEY KNOW what's going on in ther game, YOU only know your little tiny microscopic portion of it. They aren't making these changes based on POT LUCK or RANDOM DRAW out of a hat, they are making these changes based on what they SEE WITHIN the GAME as I've stated time and time again. What is going on in the game now IS POPULAR and when it becomes unpopular then perhaps you will see some changes in other directions. But, I'm pretty sure GW is going to keep changing in the easier and more fun direction than trying to make it HARD or CHALLENGING for a handful of complainers and whinners on a forum.

Quote:

And "hard but elite"? Unless I recall, only about 5 areas of the game were considered "elite", and that was on Hard Mode.

Once again you're speculating what YOU think/feel is HARD. You are not the sole person who plays this game. Everyone has DIFFERENT difficulty levels and casual players certainly don't want to contend with 24hr sitto's of hard content or even 4 hour content they don't have the time. Thus, make it faster and easier and it's more fun for the casual player. That's what Anet is about and really always has been the CASUAL player go back and read the first box that is their top priority not skill>time that was just mentioned and btw it was never "promised" in EVERY chapter or thing they did if you go back and read the box and the interviews...

aapo · Jun 13, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The OP is not talking about "revolutionary/skilled people leaving because the game turned out to be bad", it's that the game was turned into "something bad". It's not about a game not exceeding your expectations, it's about a game meeting them then later trashing them due to changes.

- Okay, I can understand that. ANET had different plans for PvP. Their initial revenue couldn't sustain continued tournaments because of lack of interest by majority of paying customers. Makes perfect sense? I don't know about PvE, feels like there's some kid having a laugh at the expense of PvE folk. But again, sh*t happens and if the product doesn't satisfy one's personal tastes, one ought to turn to competitors on the market. Simple as that. I think the players are ones who are trying to milk a dying cow here...

What did Fury do? I recall players swearing to leave GW for good and go play Fury. Turns out Fury flopped so badly the game doesn't even exist anymore. Let's see if Conan has more than just pretty graphic engine...

Gun Pierson · Jun 13, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

if you hate it so much why are you doing it? proof your skill is > time by not doing Hfff and still able to get the 5mil faction in the shortest time possible, challenging enough for ya? huh?

Is this all you can say about it? You don't look at the root of the problem I present in my example.

A master will use the principle of getting something done with the least effort, which would normally require skill. You can never get as much points in the same time playing pvp even if you win every game. Why in the hell would I lenghthen this process? To proove my skill or to get a challenge? Interesting.

Thanks for your enlightening advice, but I'll skip it.

Bryant Again · Jun 13, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

But, I'm pretty sure GW is going to keep changing in the easier and more fun direction than trying to make it HARD or CHALLENGING for a handful of complainers and whinners on a forum.

You can only get so much from computers. While they can show what areas are popular etc, they don't provide the most valuable asset you can get from your players: input. Computers show nothing but data and numbers. They don't show how a person feels about a certain area, how a person feels about X and Y skill, and so on.

I'd like to imagine that ANet is able to see how popular certain areas are and say things like "wow, these elite areas aren't too popular, let's do something about that". But if they were able to gather that kind of data then we shouldn't be seeing districts full of bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Everyone has DIFFERENT difficulty levels and casual players certainly don't want to contend with 24hr sitto's of hard content or even 4 hour content they don't have the time.

Okay then. They can play on Normal mode. Why do they need the harder difficulties easier, as well? ANet didn't have to cater solely to one group of players. They could've just provided further options without sacrificing the challenge and meaning of difficulty.

And again: it's not for the casual player. See how the PvE skills are linked to titles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

What did Fury do? I recall players swearing to leave GW for good and go play Fury. Turns out Fury flopped so badly the game doesn't even exist anymore. Let's see if Conan has more than just pretty graphic engine...

When Fury was mentioned in the OP, it was the fact that PvP players (high-end included) were willing to move from Guild Wars to it instantly. This was a result of many, many problems which wouldn't be entirely appropriate for this thread.

Regarding AoC: So far a lot of things are bugged, and most of the GW players I've known here that moved to it have unsubscribed. Combat is pretty nice, but things become your standard run-of-the-mill MMO after that.

pumpkin pie · Jun 13, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Is this all you can say about it? You don't look at the root of the problem I present in my example.

A master will use the principle of getting something done with the least effort, which would normally require skill. You can never get as much points in the same time playing pvp even if you win every game. Why in the hell would I lenghthen this process? To proove my skill or to get a challenge? Interesting.

Thanks for your enlightening advice, but I'll skip it.

Then stop making it Arena Net's faults. the first person that comes up with HFFF is the master, the one that follow isn't

aapo · Jun 13, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

A master will use the principle of getting something done with the least effort, which would normally require skill.

- Knowing how to get something with least effort is this skill. If you think running around nubbyland capping NPC-held points equates skill... you have pretty weird way of thinking. Now the really good player would devise an automated, undetectable program for farming those Kurzick points, much like Diablo II players made bots for farming bosses in order to get items without their actual input. If you think Kurzick title is stupid or that skills are tied to it are stupid, don't pursue them. But don't come telling us that easy things should be challenging, when they never were.

Gun Pierson · Jun 13, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Then stop making it Arena Net's faults. the first person that comes up with HFFF is the master, the one that follow isn't

Did you make the change to the mechanics? Don't think so. Who did? ANet. Ta da!

I was talking about the principle to get something done with the least effort. I was not talking about the person who invented hfff run on itself. Also you can master something even thougfh the first one was the original master. Another person can become a master too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Knowing how to get something with least effort is this skill. If you think running around nubbyland capping NPC-held points equates skill... you have pretty weird way of thinking. Now the really good player would devise an automated, undetectable program for farming those Kurzick points, much like Diablo II players made bots for farming bosses in order to get items without their actual input. If you think Kurzick title is stupid or that skills are tied to it are stupid, don't pursue them. But don't come telling us that easy things should be challenging, when they never were.

Are you promoting bots? You even say a good player should use an undetectable program. Sorry not my style and you just lost a lot of credibility by saying things like that. Secondly it's exactly what you say about capping npc points and seeing this as skill that I bring in the spotlight. It's time > skill. which you proove in your post.

Finally I question the mechanisms Anet implemented, it has nothing to do with easy things that should be challenging as you call it. I'm here to advocate depth and the fun factor of the game and for as many different player groups as possible.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 13, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Two relevant quotes and I am done with this post.

"If men would consider not so much wherein they differ, as wherein they agree, there would be far less of uncharitableness and angry feeling."
Joseph Addison

"Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute."
Josh Billings

Bryant Again · Jun 13, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

"Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute."
Josh Billings

The problem with that is that the majority is always going to be silent.

romeus petrus · Jun 13, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

/signed

Not that I think it will make a difference...

aapo · Jun 13, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Are you promoting bots? You even say a good player should use an undetectable program.

- If you consider farming ten million kurzick points a feat of skill then suit yourself. Whether you yourself sit in front of your computer for hundreds of hours doing easy, monotonous, repetitive activity or let a simple script handle it in this age of computers is irrelevant in terms of result.

Nothing changes the fact that the title caps at 10 million points. Ten million points is grind no matter how you look at it. If you don't like grind (I don't) then stop doing it and look for other games, where replay value isn't tied to something as dull as this. You seem to think - like OP - that just pointing out all stupid things will make difference, but this is false. It's up to ANET to build their way to success or seek their place among mediocre MMOs. If they make bad decisions it *will* show up in sales.

Gun Pierson · Jun 13, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- If you consider farming ten million kurzick points a feat of skill then suit yourself. Whether you yourself sit in front of your computer for hundreds of hours doing easy, monotonous, repetitive activity or let a simple script handle it in this age of computers is irrelevant in terms of result.

Nothing changes the fact that the title caps at 10 million points. Ten million points is grind no matter how you look at it. If you don't like grind (I don't) then stop doing it and look for other games, where replay value isn't tied to something as dull as this. You seem to think - like OP - that just pointing out all stupid things will make difference, but this is false. It's up to ANET to build their way to success or seek their place among mediocre MMOs. If they make bad decisions it *will* show up in sales.

You still don't get it do you? I think it's the contrary of skill. The point is we shouldn't use bots or grind, we should play and have fun. And once again, there are no other games with the unique features of gw so you can throw that argument away until you can name me a game with the unique things I listed a few pages ago and I'm outta here. I love this game, but there's always room for improvement.

I don't only point out questionable implementations, I also give feedback on the good things, illustrated in another post somewhere in this thread where I give the example of the deldrimor weapons being very good, pleasing most player groups versus the pig and celestial pig implementation which got a lot of heat. I also gave my view how they could have implemented the pig thing pleasing most player groups, which I did back then too.

Stupid things are there to learn from, to become better. It's in Anet's best interest if they get positive and negative feedback. What they do with it is their choice.

the_jos · Jun 13, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

The problem with that is that the majority is always going to be silent.

True and it creates an interesting situation.
Do the people who speak represent that majority or don't they?

I think that the players here on the various forums do NOT represent the entire GW community and don't even get close to it.
People using fan forums are on average more involved in the game then the average player.

I think the majority of players does not really care.
They use the tools available to them in the game and perhaps learn how to use 'outside' tools like /wiki.
But most probably they just play their game the way they want and are happy doing so.
Not being aware of the 'value' of the elite areas, probably not even being aware of Hard Mode.

Red Sonya · Jun 13, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Do the people who speak represent that majority or don't they?

I think that the players here on the various forums do NOT represent the entire GW community and don't even get close to it.

Quoted again for truth and exactly correct. The people on forums don't even represent 1% of the whole though they like to think they do and that they get things done.

You all really need to look at this in a perspective if you had your own business would you go changing things for a handful of people who always come into your store complaining? No you wouldn't or anyone in their right mind wouldn't. Now if every other customer complained that your store stinks then you'd probably lift your head up and take a smell of it. But, nah, I've run my own business in my lifetime and you just have to overlook the handful that are just complainers and always want things their way and no other way. I'd always get the jackarses who complained because I moved the store products around rearranged the store you know you've seen other stores do it. Well there's a reason behind that that the complainers don't even realize or care about it's to get customers to look around the WHOLE store again not just automatically goto their favorite isle or shelf.

Works in real life and works in GW and for Anet as well.

garethporlest18 · Jun 13, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Quoted again for truth and exactly correct. The people on forums don't even represent 1% of the whole though they like to think they do and that they get things done.

Sigh you're so very hypocritical. You tell us that we have no facts and then you come out with the 1%, that's just as baseless as anyone else's "facts" in this thread. The people on the forums come from different groups of players, so you can have 20 people on the forum in that group and 300,000 in that group on the game that don't bother with forums. Those 20 are still representing that 300,000 because they have the same playstyle in general.

Quote:

You all really need to look at this in a perspective if you had your own business would you go changing things for a handful of people who always come into your store complaining? No you wouldn't or anyone in their right mind wouldn't.

That's exactly what ANet did with their idea breaking updates. Because they don't know players want it easier without hearing some complaints.

Those numbers I threw out in the first paragraph were example by the way.

Cale Roughstar · Jun 13, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

I don't see why everyone keeps putting out the idea that Guru users are not indicative of the community as a whole. I like to compare guru to the government of any democratic country. Guru, like to government is a place where a small percentage of people from all facets of the game come to discuss the game. To say that there are not enough users to represent the community as a whole is bullcrap. Here in Canada, we have just over 300 representatives in the federal government, representing over 35 million people. That is a lot less than 1%. The users of guru represent the players of GW. To say that a full census is required is stupid and we would still be in the dark ages if a referendum was held for every single decision or policy.

Some people...

the_jos · Jun 13, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

The people on the forums come from different groups of players, so you can have 20 people on the forum in that group and 300,000 in that group on the game that don't bother with forums.

That would be true if you would take a true statistical way of measuring, but that's not the case with fan forums.
People on forums are different from the silent players, because they are more involved.

It's like asking people from a neighbourhood-watch if they feel their neighbourhood is safe.
You might get the answer you are looking for but it's sure that they don't represent the entire community.

Lopezus · Jun 13, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

The users of guru represent the players of GW

i hope you only mean statisticly because if not then that is most overblown statement of guru importance i've ever read. Players didn't ask to be reperesented by guru users, what's more there is no need for such self-proclaimed representation.

garethporlest18 · Jun 13, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

That would be true if you would take a true statistical way of measuring, but that's not the case with fan forums.
People on forums are different from the silent players, because they are more involved.

It's like asking people from a neighbourhood-watch if they feel their neighbourhood is safe.
You might get the answer you are looking for but it's sure that they don't represent the entire community.

I said their playstyle in general is the same and that's why those 20 on the forums can represent them. It doesn't matter if those 300,000 are silent. And I'm not going to believe for one instant we have over 10,000 different playstyles with the 500k people or so we have playing. Hell I don't think I've heard of more than 20 different playstyles. So there will be people on this forum that have the same playstyle in general as many people in the game.

And I was saying it to bat against the 1% that Sonya threw out. I don't hold my statement as fact but it's a hell of a lot more than 1%.